Note, for those sensible people who are untainted by twitter: this screenshot of the beginning of four translations, including mine, was circulated by a number of accounts that primarily seem to focus on promoting hatred of various kinds. Many of them posted it explicitly as a demonstration that women can't or "shouldn't be allowed to" translate Homer, and the predictable pile-on ensued. Nothing new. Many people and robots apparently have strong feelings about what I look like, which is apparently relevant for assessing my work. The same screenshot was reposted from these accounts by a number of my dear classicist colleagues, as the basis for a supposedly neutral discussion of "which translation is best". Most of those engaging in the discourse, from both groups, seemed to have little or no interest in discussing the specific relationship of the translations to the Greek. To me, that's a problem. There is, of course, no benefit to feeding all this nonsense. But I also know that many instructors and students read Homer and other ancient texts in translation, and are interested in the work of translation and in comparisons between translations and the original, about which I have many thoughts. So here I am on Substack. Thank you for being here and for reading.
Welcome and I'm delighted to see you here! I picked up a copy of your translation of the Odyssey after reading a review shortly after publication and we read it aloud as a household and loved it. Now I'm going to share this and we'll probably end up reading it again to further explore the details
Thank you to everyone who pointed out "off course" is likely an implicit sailing metaphor. I am not sure if Substack lets one edit but I should fix that if so. The addition of extra nautical language fits with Fagles' use of "launch", another nautical metaphor that isn't in the Greek. Both those added metaphors fit with the general tendency of the Fagles translation to bring the Odyssey a little closer to what modern readers expect it to be - including the idea that it's primarily a narrative about difficult sea voyages. I'm grateful for the close reading!
For what it's worth, I've taught the Odyssey to high school students about a half dozen times over the past ten years. The Emily Wilson translation was the only one I saw kids (other than the annual That One Kid) reading on their own outside of class time. It's not the only measure of merit, or necessarily the most important, but accessibility, readability, clarity, and forcefulness all come together in it beautifully. It's Different from some of the others, but it hits a great sweet spot. Thanks for it :)
I am very taken with your translation. Long, long ago I read Latimore’s, which I found sufficiently approachable and , I presume, faithful to the original to give me a love for the original epics. Yours is more approachable and elegant, and I like the reasoning for your choices. Particular annoyances for me are the use of modern expressions, additions such as you describe in TE Lawrence, also (in the very old translations) latinising of the Gods and use of rhyme. A more “stark” translation (as you describe it) where the translator places themselves less in the way is to my liking. I have had a look at the sample of your Iliad on Kindle and have just purchased. Will review when I finish.
My English professor when teaching the epic, preferred Lattimore for the Iliad and Fitzgerald for the Odyssey so that still feels like the right mix to me.
I'm finding Caroline Alexander's Iliad slow going -- which may be more of a reflection on me than her translation.
Chapman I remember more from Keats' reference but Pope I read.
I'm looking forward to your translation, Prof. Wilson.
I really enjoyed this essay. It's fascinating to get a glimpse of the myriad choices made in different translations. And I appreciate your verbing of the noun English.
I assume part of working in classics like this is understanding (or trying to understand) various subtle issues of usage and the implicit social and cultural context in which the original was created. I imagine there's plenty of known unknowns about these issues with ancient Greek, but I have to imagine there are still plenty of unknown unknowns, too. How do you grapple with these issues when teaching and/or translating a work like this?
Unfortunately, I’ve made my narrow linguistic bed and now I’m regretting my limited choice of options. Tossing and turning, cluelessly grasping for the best translations of the Great Books. Books I wish to read and understand in my native language. This discussion on the characteristics of other translations have inspired me to reread Homer in several translations as I search for a deeper understanding of this masterpiece that has helped shape our understanding of human experience in the ancient past as well as in today’s headlines.
The reason I joined Substack was to find informed opinions on the literary works I treasure. Today, I feel like I hit the jackpot.
Just subscribed! I’m reading the Fagles translation out loud to my 10yo son (his request; he is *obsessed* with Greek mythology) and we’re about halfway through. I have an old attachment to Fagles going back to high school (circa Y2K), but I’ve thought about jumping translation-ships mid-stream, probably to switch to yours — I really do love Fagles, but we tend to get lost in his sentences. Kiddo has to stop me from time to time and ask, “wait, *who’s* saying that now?” and I have to go back however many lines to figure out who actually was the subject of that sentence. Sometimes I just get totally lost and feel like I have to diagram my way out of a thicket.
I actually love the way that the Fagles scans, though. I’ve spent hours and hours reading him aloud at this point and he reads very much to me like Hopkins and his “sprung” verse. Not formal iambs but he handles stress so beautifully.
Maybe I’ll get yours and we’ll try it out for a book or two! When it comes to translated works I can’t read the original of (I’m trying to learn a little Homeric Greek but it’s currently very slow going lol — would love to eventually be able to read a student edition or an en face edition) I enjoy sort of “triangulating” my way to a sense of the original by reading a ton of different translations. I think I’ve read Dante in at least a half-dozen different translations and I love the sense of sort of approaching him obliquely, getting different glimpses of him through different eyes along the way.
The next time I have to stop and diagram a Fagles sentence so that I know what the heck is going on I think I’ll be triangulating with yours! Excited to follow along and get a behind-the-scenes peek.
It looks as though it's in a 4th edition now, and I don't know how much that is like the already-old copy that someone gave me back in 1980. But it's a thrilling way to start Greek: one simply jumps into the text (or did, in the earlier edition). I had trouble learning classical (ie post-Homeric) Greek later on, simply because none of the textbooks were as compelling as this one.
Must add that I have no idea what more recent intro Homeric textbooks are like, if there are any. But sometimes the old ones fall by the wayside, so thought it worth mentioning this option.
That's the one that was given to me by my sister's Greek major girlfriend when I was in HS. I agree with how compelling it is, and even though I never got very far, I at least have some idea of what I'm looking at.
It sounds as though we had similar experiences! A wonderful book, and exactly, it might not be inaccessible even to someone as young as ten, and definitely not just a few years later..
Ooh, I've also got a Greek obsessed kid. I was going to do the Odyssey on audiobook but maybe it's our read aloud project. I've declared a pause on Percy Jackson after reading 4 books in 2 months.
(ok I didn’t wait to get lost in another Fagles thicket—just bought both of yours. Had been hesitating over them for quite some time so it just needed seeing this to push me over the edge!)
It’s clear Homer is a tabula rasa as far as the translations go and it’s a good lesson, of how much canonical versions are “constructed” by the idiosyncrasies of the poet. It’s doubly so when you realize this was meant to be sung(presumably in the ionic mode) accompanied by the lyre. I do wonder what our perception of Homer would be if someone got on stage at Coachella and sang one of the books.
Just for fun, as I speak neither ancient nor modern Greek, I popped the original Homer into Google Translate. It couldn’t deal with the words that didn’t survive from Ancient into Modern Greek. But here you go:
a man inspired me, muse, polytropon, who cares a lot
he passed, on Troy's holy ptoliethro:
I have seen many people's jokes and I know them,
many d' o c' in point everywhere I grieved whom in anger,
denying the soul and the taste of partners.
But he didn't come, he was a priest.
for they will usurp everything,
infants, oἳ by mouth Ἠperionos Ἠelioio
host: attar o toisin must have a delicious meal.
of the same, O goddess, daughter of Zeus, tell us also.
Like, what in the world does the word that looks like “oi” right before the words …”by mouth… (in the 3rd line up from the last line) mean???; and, what in the world does “d’ o c’ “ mean, there in the 4th line down from the top line????
Wild to learn “off course” is so modern. OED has first use as 1960. As with other commenters I assumed it was much older, given the latin cursus has the same sense of "course" as a route or track.
Fair point. Ngram shows "off course" appearing quite suddenly in early 1900s (way before 1960, but still surprisingly recent). I completely feel like blown off course should have been common in 1800s but language is mysterious I guess...
It was this very passage that ended a possible degree in literature for me. In my very first mid-term of my freshman year, we were asked to discuss something concerning Odysseus, who returned home "friendless and alone." I hastily scribbled an impassioned rant about how everything that happened to that bastard was his own fault. The first lines refer to his men as "children and fools" because they ate the cattle on that island to keep from starving. Sounds like ordinary human behavior to me, and by the way it was Odysseus himself who got his men blown onto that island, because he had bragged to Polyphemous after blinding the bugger, and had told him his name. And it turned out that the cyclops was offspring of Poseidon, and he got his dad to blow Odysseus off course in the first place.
My instructor told me I was obviously having trouble understanding the concept of the Homeric Hero. And he gave me a C. ... I majored in History.
Frequently, I find myself feeling the way you did about our friend, Odysseus. The guy was sailing all over the place on that so-called Wine Dark Sea, for 10 full years after the end of the Trojan War, indulging in multi-year trysts with nymphs, witches and sorceresses, among other things, including tying himself to the mast of his ship to evade being bewitched by Sirens, etc. O.M.G. - Seriously dude?
Meanwhile, his long-suffering TradWife, Penelope, languishes at home, forestalling a literal army of would-be “suitors” by laboring day and night at her loom - for TWENTY freaking YEARS, until her husband Odysseus decides to finally drag his sorry A** home to her, and then slay all the “unworthy” men waiting there to take his place. Yay you, Odysseus. You’re such a hero, man. Sorry not sorry, sometimes I’m just not persuaded by this “epic” poem of Homer’s.
His men often beg him not to drag them into more trouble and he doesn't listen (Cyclops, Circe). He doesn't even do a basic headcount when leaving Circe. His men open the bag of the winds cause he refused to tell them what was inside, etc. He's a horrific leader. And he's the one telling the story, so we can imagine it's even worse what happens.
I have no scholarly credentials, but the translation that spoke to me was that of Stanley Lombardo, which begins with “Speak, Memory - “ and is performed (as opposed to read) by the translator, who also, IIRC, plays the drums on the CD.
I loved this post and I'm so glad I stumbled upon your Substack!
"There’s no such thing as “the” right answer, and numerous different translations, including all of these, can provide valid but different portraits of the original." - yesss. And getting lost in comparing these portraits is my drug of choice :)
Also your translation is so fresh and gave me inspiration and validation for my own ongoing translation work (between completely different languages and on quite another scale of magnitude, but still). Thank you! 🤍
Note, for those sensible people who are untainted by twitter: this screenshot of the beginning of four translations, including mine, was circulated by a number of accounts that primarily seem to focus on promoting hatred of various kinds. Many of them posted it explicitly as a demonstration that women can't or "shouldn't be allowed to" translate Homer, and the predictable pile-on ensued. Nothing new. Many people and robots apparently have strong feelings about what I look like, which is apparently relevant for assessing my work. The same screenshot was reposted from these accounts by a number of my dear classicist colleagues, as the basis for a supposedly neutral discussion of "which translation is best". Most of those engaging in the discourse, from both groups, seemed to have little or no interest in discussing the specific relationship of the translations to the Greek. To me, that's a problem. There is, of course, no benefit to feeding all this nonsense. But I also know that many instructors and students read Homer and other ancient texts in translation, and are interested in the work of translation and in comparisons between translations and the original, about which I have many thoughts. So here I am on Substack. Thank you for being here and for reading.
Welcome to Substack, Emily! Great to have you here.
Welcome and I'm delighted to see you here! I picked up a copy of your translation of the Odyssey after reading a review shortly after publication and we read it aloud as a household and loved it. Now I'm going to share this and we'll probably end up reading it again to further explore the details
Thank you to everyone who pointed out "off course" is likely an implicit sailing metaphor. I am not sure if Substack lets one edit but I should fix that if so. The addition of extra nautical language fits with Fagles' use of "launch", another nautical metaphor that isn't in the Greek. Both those added metaphors fit with the general tendency of the Fagles translation to bring the Odyssey a little closer to what modern readers expect it to be - including the idea that it's primarily a narrative about difficult sea voyages. I'm grateful for the close reading!
For what it's worth, I've taught the Odyssey to high school students about a half dozen times over the past ten years. The Emily Wilson translation was the only one I saw kids (other than the annual That One Kid) reading on their own outside of class time. It's not the only measure of merit, or necessarily the most important, but accessibility, readability, clarity, and forcefulness all come together in it beautifully. It's Different from some of the others, but it hits a great sweet spot. Thanks for it :)
I am very taken with your translation. Long, long ago I read Latimore’s, which I found sufficiently approachable and , I presume, faithful to the original to give me a love for the original epics. Yours is more approachable and elegant, and I like the reasoning for your choices. Particular annoyances for me are the use of modern expressions, additions such as you describe in TE Lawrence, also (in the very old translations) latinising of the Gods and use of rhyme. A more “stark” translation (as you describe it) where the translator places themselves less in the way is to my liking. I have had a look at the sample of your Iliad on Kindle and have just purchased. Will review when I finish.
My English professor when teaching the epic, preferred Lattimore for the Iliad and Fitzgerald for the Odyssey so that still feels like the right mix to me.
I'm finding Caroline Alexander's Iliad slow going -- which may be more of a reflection on me than her translation.
Chapman I remember more from Keats' reference but Pope I read.
I'm looking forward to your translation, Prof. Wilson.
PS unlike EM, I do know the difference between The Iliad and The Odyssey. I just happen to prefer The Iliad.
I really enjoyed this essay. It's fascinating to get a glimpse of the myriad choices made in different translations. And I appreciate your verbing of the noun English.
I assume part of working in classics like this is understanding (or trying to understand) various subtle issues of usage and the implicit social and cultural context in which the original was created. I imagine there's plenty of known unknowns about these issues with ancient Greek, but I have to imagine there are still plenty of unknown unknowns, too. How do you grapple with these issues when teaching and/or translating a work like this?
Unfortunately, I’ve made my narrow linguistic bed and now I’m regretting my limited choice of options. Tossing and turning, cluelessly grasping for the best translations of the Great Books. Books I wish to read and understand in my native language. This discussion on the characteristics of other translations have inspired me to reread Homer in several translations as I search for a deeper understanding of this masterpiece that has helped shape our understanding of human experience in the ancient past as well as in today’s headlines.
The reason I joined Substack was to find informed opinions on the literary works I treasure. Today, I feel like I hit the jackpot.
So thank you EW for this illuminating discussion.
Just subscribed! I’m reading the Fagles translation out loud to my 10yo son (his request; he is *obsessed* with Greek mythology) and we’re about halfway through. I have an old attachment to Fagles going back to high school (circa Y2K), but I’ve thought about jumping translation-ships mid-stream, probably to switch to yours — I really do love Fagles, but we tend to get lost in his sentences. Kiddo has to stop me from time to time and ask, “wait, *who’s* saying that now?” and I have to go back however many lines to figure out who actually was the subject of that sentence. Sometimes I just get totally lost and feel like I have to diagram my way out of a thicket.
I actually love the way that the Fagles scans, though. I’ve spent hours and hours reading him aloud at this point and he reads very much to me like Hopkins and his “sprung” verse. Not formal iambs but he handles stress so beautifully.
Maybe I’ll get yours and we’ll try it out for a book or two! When it comes to translated works I can’t read the original of (I’m trying to learn a little Homeric Greek but it’s currently very slow going lol — would love to eventually be able to read a student edition or an en face edition) I enjoy sort of “triangulating” my way to a sense of the original by reading a ton of different translations. I think I’ve read Dante in at least a half-dozen different translations and I love the sense of sort of approaching him obliquely, getting different glimpses of him through different eyes along the way.
The next time I have to stop and diagram a Fagles sentence so that I know what the heck is going on I think I’ll be triangulating with yours! Excited to follow along and get a behind-the-scenes peek.
What a nice thing to read about. I wish you both good reading.
For learning Homeric, have you come across Clyde Pharr's book (https://www.oupress.com/9780806141640/homeric-greek/) ?
It looks as though it's in a 4th edition now, and I don't know how much that is like the already-old copy that someone gave me back in 1980. But it's a thrilling way to start Greek: one simply jumps into the text (or did, in the earlier edition). I had trouble learning classical (ie post-Homeric) Greek later on, simply because none of the textbooks were as compelling as this one.
Must add that I have no idea what more recent intro Homeric textbooks are like, if there are any. But sometimes the old ones fall by the wayside, so thought it worth mentioning this option.
That's the one that was given to me by my sister's Greek major girlfriend when I was in HS. I agree with how compelling it is, and even though I never got very far, I at least have some idea of what I'm looking at.
It sounds as though we had similar experiences! A wonderful book, and exactly, it might not be inaccessible even to someone as young as ten, and definitely not just a few years later..
Ooh, I've also got a Greek obsessed kid. I was going to do the Odyssey on audiobook but maybe it's our read aloud project. I've declared a pause on Percy Jackson after reading 4 books in 2 months.
(ok I didn’t wait to get lost in another Fagles thicket—just bought both of yours. Had been hesitating over them for quite some time so it just needed seeing this to push me over the edge!)
It’s clear Homer is a tabula rasa as far as the translations go and it’s a good lesson, of how much canonical versions are “constructed” by the idiosyncrasies of the poet. It’s doubly so when you realize this was meant to be sung(presumably in the ionic mode) accompanied by the lyre. I do wonder what our perception of Homer would be if someone got on stage at Coachella and sang one of the books.
Yes! See “wine dark sea”.
You'd think Homer would mention which one of us he wants to tell the story... smh.
The fabulous Prof. Wilson on Substack?! Be still my 💙… Life *is* good.
Just for fun, as I speak neither ancient nor modern Greek, I popped the original Homer into Google Translate. It couldn’t deal with the words that didn’t survive from Ancient into Modern Greek. But here you go:
a man inspired me, muse, polytropon, who cares a lot
he passed, on Troy's holy ptoliethro:
I have seen many people's jokes and I know them,
many d' o c' in point everywhere I grieved whom in anger,
denying the soul and the taste of partners.
But he didn't come, he was a priest.
for they will usurp everything,
infants, oἳ by mouth Ἠperionos Ἠelioio
host: attar o toisin must have a delicious meal.
of the same, O goddess, daughter of Zeus, tell us also.
This also shows why actual humans are still needed to create really top quality translations
The FB translations of my Greek cousin's posts reveal an entirely different way of expression; thinking itself is shaped by language.
Yes, I think that’s true
😳😬🤯🤕 Pretty sure I have a headache now, after reading this! 🧐 🤔🧐🤔
Like, what in the world does the word that looks like “oi” right before the words …”by mouth… (in the 3rd line up from the last line) mean???; and, what in the world does “d’ o c’ “ mean, there in the 4th line down from the top line????
Goodness only knows! But try putting Old English into the modern English translation tool and the results would be wayyy more bizarre
Wild to learn “off course” is so modern. OED has first use as 1960. As with other commenters I assumed it was much older, given the latin cursus has the same sense of "course" as a route or track.
The OED entry citing 1960 is for "off-course" (note hyphen) as an adjective. I strongly suspect a phrase such as "blown off course" is much older.
Fair point. Ngram shows "off course" appearing quite suddenly in early 1900s (way before 1960, but still surprisingly recent). I completely feel like blown off course should have been common in 1800s but language is mysterious I guess...
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=%22off+course%22&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3
It was this very passage that ended a possible degree in literature for me. In my very first mid-term of my freshman year, we were asked to discuss something concerning Odysseus, who returned home "friendless and alone." I hastily scribbled an impassioned rant about how everything that happened to that bastard was his own fault. The first lines refer to his men as "children and fools" because they ate the cattle on that island to keep from starving. Sounds like ordinary human behavior to me, and by the way it was Odysseus himself who got his men blown onto that island, because he had bragged to Polyphemous after blinding the bugger, and had told him his name. And it turned out that the cyclops was offspring of Poseidon, and he got his dad to blow Odysseus off course in the first place.
My instructor told me I was obviously having trouble understanding the concept of the Homeric Hero. And he gave me a C. ... I majored in History.
Frequently, I find myself feeling the way you did about our friend, Odysseus. The guy was sailing all over the place on that so-called Wine Dark Sea, for 10 full years after the end of the Trojan War, indulging in multi-year trysts with nymphs, witches and sorceresses, among other things, including tying himself to the mast of his ship to evade being bewitched by Sirens, etc. O.M.G. - Seriously dude?
Meanwhile, his long-suffering TradWife, Penelope, languishes at home, forestalling a literal army of would-be “suitors” by laboring day and night at her loom - for TWENTY freaking YEARS, until her husband Odysseus decides to finally drag his sorry A** home to her, and then slay all the “unworthy” men waiting there to take his place. Yay you, Odysseus. You’re such a hero, man. Sorry not sorry, sometimes I’m just not persuaded by this “epic” poem of Homer’s.
Frequently, to me, it’s Penelope, who’s the actual Hero (ok, Heroine) of this epic tale.
His men often beg him not to drag them into more trouble and he doesn't listen (Cyclops, Circe). He doesn't even do a basic headcount when leaving Circe. His men open the bag of the winds cause he refused to tell them what was inside, etc. He's a horrific leader. And he's the one telling the story, so we can imagine it's even worse what happens.
"Additions corresponding to nothing" — going to use this next time I mark translator certification exams))
I have no scholarly credentials, but the translation that spoke to me was that of Stanley Lombardo, which begins with “Speak, Memory - “ and is performed (as opposed to read) by the translator, who also, IIRC, plays the drums on the CD.
Lombardo is a good one. I used to recommend him before Wilson's to those that want readability.
I loved this post and I'm so glad I stumbled upon your Substack!
"There’s no such thing as “the” right answer, and numerous different translations, including all of these, can provide valid but different portraits of the original." - yesss. And getting lost in comparing these portraits is my drug of choice :)
Also your translation is so fresh and gave me inspiration and validation for my own ongoing translation work (between completely different languages and on quite another scale of magnitude, but still). Thank you! 🤍